[Tartan Jack]

I was wondering . . .

Would any merchants be interested in getting the group a good deal on a BotK tartan run?

What does it look like, one may ask . . .
http://www.tartanreg...s.aspx?ref=5659

[12stones]

Tartan Jack, on 07 January 2010 - 10:14 AM, said:

I was wondering . . .

Would any merchants be interested in getting the group a good deal on a BotK tartan run?

What does it look like, one may ask . . .
http://www.tartanreg...s.aspx?ref=5659

Details moved to other thread...

[Raptor]

At this point, once bitten twice shy.

[Tartan Jack]

There is a thread in the members section for detailed dealings. Please, give details, not vague.

[Chas]

Tartan Jack, on 07 January 2010 - 05:49 PM, said:

There is a thread in the members section for detailed dealings. Please, give details, not vague.

What about the 'forum users' who are not paying members? I am a purchaser of the first BotK kilt, but I would not consider another one if I was not privy to the decision making process.

Regards

Chas

[CactusJack]

Chas, on 07 January 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:

What about the 'forum users' who are not paying members? I am a purchaser of the first BotK kilt, but I would not consider another one if I was not privy to the decision making process.

Regards

Chas

He make a very valid point, Why keep this bottled up in the Members Only section??

[Megs]

Chas you do have a good point. I will see if i can get more details. thanks for making that point. We do have many non paid members who have supported other efforts here. Larry, thank you as well.

I think at this time, until a resolution is made on the original deal, maybe it's not time to ask about this just yet. But i would like to know more about what's the intent, pm sent John.

[Chas]

Megs, on 08 January 2010 - 05:35 AM, said:

Chas you do have a good point. I will see if i can get more details. thanks for making that point. We do have many non paid members who have supported other efforts here. Larry, thank you as well.

I think at this time, until a resolution is made on the original deal, maybe it's not time to ask about this just yet. But i would like to know more about what's the intent, pm sent John.

Thanks for that Megs.

Personally, I think the whole idea, at this time, is a mistake. I have worked for many years in Customer Service and I know about unhappy and unsatisfied customers. All those of us, who bought this last BotK kilt fall into that category. Some purchasers will be affected worse than others. Reading all the posts before the purchase, many stated that they bought it because of its price. Many bought out of a sense of duty to the Brotherhood. Many feel cheated or robbed. Some will be genuinely distraught because this has happened to them and it was done by friends. A new kilt run, at this time, is I think doomed to failure because of all the baggage from the last one. This run would have to be perfect - in fact better than perfect to meet the new expectations. And God help us all if there is the slightest delay or fault.

Time is a great healer.

I would propose a different scenario.

A small committee (3 max) to investigate all possibilities. The two major ones being - yardage or kilts? (XMTS have had 3 successful fabric only runs - no kilts) We have the facility for voting - let the people choose.

A thread started on the open forums to report progress (for committee posting only)
A second thread in parallel for members to give input and ideas.

Weekly reports by committee - everything is to be reported. (I sent this email, to this weaver, on the XX/XX/2010) Everything should be done openly, so that everybody can see what is being done on their behalf. No one can then complain that information was withheld or that they were not informed or that they were somehow kept out of the loop.

Two dates chosen. The first date; final date for money to be in (I would suggest a date, at least 3 months in the future, maybe even 6 months). Second date; the delivery date. This should be 2 weeks before a special event so that everybody gets their kilts in time. I would say that the special event date should be St Andrew's Day 2010 or New Year's Eve 2010 or Burns Night 2011. Yes I know this is a long time, but the process was rushed the first time and look what happened.

The committee should not look at having the deal brokered by one of our own members. Far better to go to an established merchant outside of the Brotherhood.

As a total aside, I approached Mark at Frugal Corner. He quoted me $128 per kilt with a minimum order of 45 kilts for 8 yard 16oz wool. These would be made to waist and drop measurements supplied by member. I am not saying that we should go with this, but I am saying that this is the kind of deal that is available outside and we should seriously look at it.

Whatever is done should be done openly and with the full knowledge of everybody but it should not be rushed.

Regards

Chas

[CactusJack]

Chas,
I fully agrre with everything you stated and now await a response from thos in charge. Good work my friend.

[Megs]

Chas I would agree that this is not the time... First of all many folks need resolution to the first deal... time to heal over the personal issues involved in it, and time to build back up their resources. People are dissolusioned and honestly I'm not sure we'd even get 45 members willing to put themselves out for another kilt and rightly so. Folks need to build back up their resources, get some recourse on the first issue kilts and have time to feel good about this place again.

Your ideas on how to go about it once that all comes together are great. Unfotunately unlike XFarts, this is a board run by a very small group of folks, namely 1 KT who at the time has been dealing with tremendous things in the personal/professional realm, so until the time needed to devote to everyone and ensure this process is handled properly is available... i think you're quite right.

There is work going on behind the scenes to try and handle the matter with the original deal and what actions/recourse/resolution can be offered to those of you who got shafted.

I know everyone who's spoken up about their kilt feel pretty chapped and as someone who has invested a lot of time and energy in this place and really believes in it... i feel chapped for you all. It has not just affected the purchasers, but the forum and it's brother's satisfaction with it as well. That hasn't gone unnoticed. Thanks again Chas, your ideas are really spot on and much better than anything i came up with at this point... and I have 15 years in customer service.

[Tartan Jack]

OK, this thread took a different turn than I expected.
It was intended to let known, established BotK merchants know there is a need and want for traditional, quality BotK kilts, made from 16oz wool.


When the last run started, we wanted decent quality kilts. As a group, we went for mid-level kilts and didn't get that. Many (I assume) still want good quality kilts in BotK tartan.

The other thread was started for accountability reasons. I had contacted a few mills for prices and the yardage breaks. I wanted folks to know what I was doing, plus some might want to add to it. I put it there, as it seemed appropriate at the time b/c I figured most folks that would shell out $40-70/yard for fabric and have a traditional kilt made in BotK tartan (by someone like Matt Newsome, Kathy Kare, Barb Tewksbury, or the like) would already be members. There wasn't an intent to slight or ignore anyone. I didn't respond yesterday, as I had to work in the later afternoon and into the night. I am just now back on here enough to read threads.
At this time, NOTHING has been done and no decisions made. The longer term (next 6 months or more) is to get material from a known, recognized source and to have the ball rolling so that interested parties could be able to get a 16oz traditional kilt in BotK tartan. As of yet, there is one (that I know of) kilt that fits this. KT has a 16oz box pleat, which was made by Matt Newsome back when the tartan was registered. I want one, plus other probably do too.
There is a want for traditional wool kilts in BotK tartan.


This thread was aimed primarily at merchants. If one is interested in HELPING us with this endeavor, contact KT.


There is NO fabric I know of available for usage in kilts. Let's remedy that . . .

[Megs]

I understand what you're getting at John... but my point again would be those folks willing to pay at one point for something like that are pretty burned and may not just have the money laying around to try again. While you are ready to push forward on material and i do think we should have some available... it may be a bit too soon. I don't know. that's all I'm saying.
I would love to see someplace like USAKilts have the BotK tartan as an option just like their exclusive LEO Memorial which is quite beautiful.. where folks can go and just order, but the fact remains we are a small brotherhood and the costs of keeping that in stock, etc. vs the volume or lack of volume may not be worth it to a manufacturer such as Rocky or whoever else.
The other issue is... if we get Barb or a kiltmaker of that level on board, who would pay to have the materials made... it would have to come from the brothers who wanted kilts and just got burned shelling out money. It's right after the holidays, times are tough and folks need time to build their resources back up. Not saying your idea and Chas's aren't good.

[Tartan Jack]

Chas, on 08 January 2010 - 06:09 AM, said:

Thanks for that Megs.

Personally, I think the whole idea, at this time, is a mistake. I have worked for many years in Customer Service and I know about unhappy and unsatisfied customers. All those of us, who bought this last BotK kilt fall into that category. Some purchasers will be affected worse than others. Reading all the posts before the purchase, many stated that they bought it because of its price. Many bought out of a sense of duty to the Brotherhood. Many feel cheated or robbed. Some will be genuinely distraught because this has happened to them and it was done by friends. A new kilt run, at this time, is I think doomed to failure because of all the baggage from the last one. This run would have to be perfect - in fact better than perfect to meet the new expectations. And God help us all if there is the slightest delay or fault.

Time is a great healer.

I would propose a different scenario.

A small committee (3 max) to investigate all possibilities. The two major ones being - yardage or kilts? (XMTS have had 3 successful fabric only runs - no kilts) We have the facility for voting - let the people choose.

A thread started on the open forums to report progress (for committee posting only)
A second thread in parallel for members to give input and ideas.

Weekly reports by committee - everything is to be reported. (I sent this email, to this weaver, on the XX/XX/2010) Everything should be done openly, so that everybody can see what is being done on their behalf. No one can then complain that information was withheld or that they were not informed or that they were somehow kept out of the loop.

Two dates chosen. The first date; final date for money to be in (I would suggest a date, at least 3 months in the future, maybe even 6 months). Second date; the delivery date. This should be 2 weeks before a special event so that everybody gets their kilts in time. I would say that the special event date should be St Andrew's Day 2010 or New Year's Eve 2010 or Burns Night 2011. Yes I know this is a long time, but the process was rushed the first time and look what happened.

The committee should not look at having the deal brokered by one of our own members. Far better to go to an established merchant outside of the Brotherhood.

As a total aside, I approached Mark at Frugal Corner. He quoted me $128 per kilt with a minimum order of 45 kilts for 8 yard 16oz wool. These would be made to waist and drop measurements supplied by member. I am not saying that we should go with this, but I am saying that this is the kind of deal that is available outside and we should seriously look at it.

Whatever is done should be done openly and with the full knowledge of everybody but it should not be rushed.

Regards

Chas

That could be done! The committee idea is a good one. That way, one person can't work out any "sweetheart deal."
I've gotten material from 2 runs of X Marks tartan, the 13oz is presently a kilt, while my 16oz has been sold off when I "fell out" with their leadership before I made kilts from it.
They have a merchant handle it, namely Freedom Kilts.

That WAS the intent of this thread, to see if a known merchant was interested in working with the group.

The committee of three is a good idea. Previously, there was NOTHING being done to accomplish the original goal of quality BotK tartan kilts. The hard part is getting fabric, which is the first step. Once that is done, multiple people can actually sew the material into kilts.
Now, if one of the well-known kilt supply merchants wanted to step-up and supply the material, that would be basically what X Marks does. Now, a number of our merchants also have kiltmakers with whom they work, like our own Paul Henry. As such, a finished kilt would be made and delivered to one who wants that. THAT would be one step beyond. Any such relationship would be based on the reputation, capabilities, and so forth of that merchant.

I agree, a KNOWN merchant would be the way to go about this.
"Once bitten, twice shy" is true. The only acceptable way forward is to accomplish what we set out for this time. An abysmal failure would KILL future attempts, hurting the group as a whole. A deal should be open and names named. I'd not buy ANYTHING from entities I don't know and can't get back to if there are problems. That's happened. It should NEVER happen again.
That is why I started this post, to get the attention of known merchants. The forum ranks high in Google visibility and folks know who we are. Merchants should be able to read this thread, discuss it, contact KT with proposals, then move forward from there.

I agree, there should be NO rush. I'm looking 6 months or more out, not immediate.

[Tartan Jack]

Megs, on 08 January 2010 - 09:49 AM, said:

I understand what you're getting at John... but my point again would be those folks willing to pay at one point for something like that are pretty burned and may not just have the money laying around to try again. While you are ready to push forward on material and i do think we should have some available... it may be a bit too soon. I don't know. that's all I'm saying.
I would love to see someplace like USAKilts have the BotK tartan as an option just like their exclusive LEO Memorial which is quite beautiful.. where folks can go and just order, but the fact remains we are a small brotherhood and the costs of keeping that in stock, etc. vs the volume or lack of volume may not be worth it to a manufacturer such as Rocky or whoever else.
The other issue is... if we get Barb or a kiltmaker of that level on board, who would pay to have the materials made... it would have to come from the brothers who wanted kilts and just got burned shelling out money. It's right after the holidays, times are tough and folks need time to build their resources back up. Not saying your idea and Chas's aren't good.

Sorry.
My timing sucked.

I was trying to look at the summer before any money would change hands. We are back to "square one" on something I think/thought people want. It will take time for anything to develop.

I was also thinking that moving forward would be part of the healing from the fiasco, part of "getting up again."

If I'm wrong, we can drop it completely.

[Chas]

Tartan Jack, on 08 January 2010 - 03:07 PM, said:

Sorry.
My timing sucked.

I was trying to look at the summer before any money would change hands. We are back to "square one" on something I think/thought people want. It will take time for anything to develop.

I was also thinking that moving forward would be part of the healing from the fiasco, part of "getting up again."

If I'm wrong, we can drop it completely.

TJ - I think the idea is good and should not be dropped, just that it shouldn't be picked up just yet. You've sown the seed in people's minds and that is a good thing. It allows people to mull things over in their own time rather than putting them under pressure now.

If it was up to me, I would set a date of Tuesday the 1st of June 2010. By then the replacement kilts should have been delivered and any actions will have been taken or not as the case may be. For most of us it will be summer (or close) and the warmer weather will bring thoughts of kilts and kilt wearing. Just the right time to start planning a new kilt.

Regards

Chas

[Tartan Jack]

Chas, I agree. It should mulled over and picked up when people are ready, which is not yet.

As I posted in the other thread:
After catching up on the threads . . .

This was a bad idea at this time.
I'll drop all discussions at this time, explaining that we will be unable to do anything for a while after all and it was my idea.
If interest, we'll pick it up in a few months.

Consider this idea dropped, unless someone else brings it up.


I still want a good BotK kilt . . .
So far:
4 yards of material with a tartan that is WAY to small to look right (From the Neokilt run) . . .
Rebuilt kilt that is basically usable only as a beater . . .
6 yards of material unusable for a kilt . . .

If someone plans to get a kilt made in a custom run (probably DC Daiglish, whoever makes it), let me know. I'll be interested in some 16oz wool yardage . . .
We might could bump it up to double width yardage.

[CactusJack]

Tartan Jack, on 08 January 2010 - 09:40 AM, said:

I still want a good BotK kilt . . .

I think we all do John, Your idea was very good but like was said just not the right time...

[Spartan]

Ha -- I posted on the other thread before reading this one.

There is no reason why anyone who wants a quality 16oz traditional kilt couldn't have one made by someone like Kathy Lare who can order the tartan directly from D. C. Dalgliesh, with KT's permission. It would be a reasonably priced tank. That's how I got my good tank (avatar) in a custom weave.

For those who want something less expensive, the committee idea to work something out with Rocky at USA Kilts to have a stock available sounds like a good idea. His issue would be to have enough initial sales to make it worthwhile. That might take awhile.

For me, I think I have enough casual kilts. My next will be another tank. That will likely be a tartan in a family connection.

[Dandruff]

Man if you guys had Rocky making those kilts, even I would order one.

[Pain]

Here's the thing I think a lot of people are missing here...

This isn't to directly purchase kilts, this is to purchase the yardage so that it can be made into a kilt. You would be able to pick whoever you wanted to make the kilt, it's just a matter of getting the right weight and quality fabric.